Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (00:01)
Alright, alright. So today we have an awesome conversation for you all. Dr. Jason Schimard has spent actually over 20 years as a functional medicine practitioner supporting people with type 2 diabetes and insulin resistance who are overwhelmed by the usual eat less sugar advice. Rather than telling folks to do more with less context, he guides them to understand what actually causes a rise in blood sugar and disease progression using a root cause.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (00:30)
lab-based approach. He's especially known for explaining complex cellular and metabolic dysfunction in plain language so people finally understand what's happening in their own bodies and feel empowered to take control, which of course here we love. So Dr. Shimard, thank you for joining us and if it's all right with you, I want to jump right in.
Jason Shumard DC (00:53)
I appreciate it. Yeah, let's do this.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (00:55)
Okay, wonderful. So let's start with some of the foundations. So for listeners who may not know the difference, what's actually happening psychologically, physiologically, wherever you want to take it in type 2 diabetes versus type 1? We talk a lot about type 1 here. and why does the distinction matter for what's possible?
Jason Shumard DC (01:16)
Yeah, the biggest distinction is where it's happening in the body. So with a type one, this is the inability for the pancreas to produce its own insulin, which then becomes an insulin dependent individual. This is someone who requires to have insulin because their pancreas is no longer able to make it. Whereas type two actually happens at the cell level. So the person is still able to make the proper amount of insulin. Now, when you look at insulins, it's main
Jason Shumard DC (01:44)
Purpose and job is to essentially grab onto the glucose and to the bloodstream and drag it over to the cells. There's what's called an insulin receptor, which I call at the kind of the door unlocking or the key unlocking the door, if you will. And when that opens in the cell, then the sugar can enter, get into our mitochondria, which is our engines of our cells. And that's where the magic happens with ATP production, the energy and our ability to function as human beings. So it's really this the difference is where the problems are occurring from.
Jason Shumard DC (02:14)
Type one is the pancreas itself. And in type two, it's actually the cells that are actually damaged. And that's where the problem is really stemming from.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (02:23)
Okay, absolutely. Thank you for giving us that overview. So just for anyone who's listening, I think it's important to distinguish the difference because we will often use the word diabetes. But for someone like me who is type 1 and type 1, type 1, that is going to be a very different diabetes than someone who uses the word diabetes and means maybe type 2 or gestational or latter. There's a lot of differences. So I love that we're clarifying up front.
Jason Shumard DC (02:26)
Yeah.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (02:50)
And thank you for that. So I actually want to know a little bit more about you too. So if I'm correct, correct me if I'm wrong. I believe you're a chiropractor by training who now works in functional endocrinology. So walk me through your path a little bit and what made you move towards metabolic health.
Jason Shumard DC (03:08)
Yeah, this is oftentimes a misconception and kind of confusing for a lot of individuals because they see the DC doctor of chiropractic and think, well, you know, how can a doctor of chiropractic specialize and work with type 2 diabetes? Well, there's a couple of reasons why this happened. And the first one was when I was going for my doctorates for chiropractic, I my mom was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. And like many individuals, I thought at the time this is a metabolic problem.
Jason Shumard DC (03:38)
Change your diet, exercise, keep your weight at a good l range, use pharmaceutical medication. We can manage this and she's gonna be fine. Well, what I found out with her situation was that wasn't the case. She continued to decline, even though she was doing the best she could do, and things progressively got worse. Even though her blood sugars were still in range based upon the medical doctor's preference, she was getting more complications and eventually she went to full-blown kidney failure and
Jason Shumard DC (04:08)
And had a stroke and she passed. This is the progression we saw with her situation that I've seen with other individuals who weren't really taking this really serious and they get worse over time. So what I when I was in school though, I was introduced to functional medicine. Our school was very open to different types of of areas of health, and functional medicine was something they had a speaker come and speak about, and it was very intriguing to me based upon my mom's history. And I was like, this is something I want to look into more. I started taking courses, etc.
Jason Shumard DC (04:38)
And what many people don't realize is that the doctor of chiropractic is essentially medical school, right? It's essentially where we're trained physicians. The only thing that's difference between a medical doctor and a doctor of chiropractic is the ability to prescribe pharmaceutical drugs, right? So we have the ability to differentially diagnose, we have the ability to evaluate, you know, run x-rays, lab testing, MRIs.
Jason Shumard DC (05:04)
We can do anything in essentially what a medical doctor can do except for surgery, injections, and prescribe medical pharmaceutical medications. So that was an easy transition for me because I didn't want to do surgery. I didn't want to prescribe pharmaceutical drugs. There was someone else who could do that. And in functional medicine, we look from a holistic aspect, right? What where is the body broken? Where are things have have have broken down? And in the case of type two diabetes, this individual r other than type n beyond type one.
Jason Shumard DC (05:34)
Has was able to regulate their own sugar at one time in their life. Like their body was doing its job effectively. So if it's no longer able to do that, something is broken. Something went wrong inside their body. And what's great about functional medicine is we can start to run the right testing, ask the right questions, then identify what problems they're dealing with that have been happening over many decades, and then start unraveling them and start addressing them one by one. And eventually, when you start removing enough of this these problems.
Jason Shumard DC (06:02)
the body can go back to doing itself again, which is again why I love the philosophy of chiropractic, why I chose it, because the the viewpoint is if you can help remove the the the problems that are going on inside the body, that it can start healing itself again. And I truly still believe this today that if we are have blood circulation, we have a brain function and we're above ground, we can still heal. It doesn't matter if you're 95 years old or 25 years old. We just have to find the right steps for you to get that
Jason Shumard DC (06:32)
Homeostasis.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (06:33)
Absolutely. And you know, that actually brings up a question that I have. And so do you run labs that are separate or different than maybe what a standard endocrinologist might work up might include?
Jason Shumard DC (06:47)
Yeah, the labs have some similarities that we'll run that the endocrinologist or a primary care may run who's managing diabetes. The difference is the expansiveness of what the tests we're running. So for example, a traditional medical doctor, endocrinologist may only run a fasting glucose and hemoglobin A1C. I'm just really doing stuff from blood sugar perspective. Well, we're gonna run additional tests in fast seed insulin levels or insulin levels. We're gonna run C peptide.
Jason Shumard DC (07:16)
We're gonna look at different markers in regards to all of that because it's gonna indicate some things that are happening, right? If you're you could have an an A1C and for just for definition here, the hemoglobin A1C is a 90-day average of how well the body is managing its own sugars, either on its own or with using pharmaceutical drugs. So a normal non-diabetic is below a 5.7. So that's a normal.
Jason Shumard DC (07:42)
Like this person is managing on its own, has no diabetes, no insulin resistance showing up essentially at that point. 5.7 to 6.4 is considered pre-diabetes. Well, that's like pre pre-pregnancy. I mean, this is a this is a problem that's actually happening, it's developing. It just we don't see enough of a problem yet to call it a diagnosis. Essentially, this problem is already developing, it's it's on its course. It's like a train that's moving at this point.
Jason Shumard DC (08:09)
6.5 and above is considered a diagnosis of diabetes. So when you have a 6.5 and above, you're basically diagnosed, you're given medication, you're given the recommendations, change your diet, exercise, lose weight. So yeah, we can look at these things and it gives us great information from a managerial perspective, but you can have an A1C under medication at a 5.7, considered a really regulated blood sugar with medication, but your insulin levels could be 24, right? That's a big issue.
Jason Shumard DC (08:37)
Because when you have this high amounts of insulin, it's basically perpetuating the disease process. I always say, you know, think of insulin on your on your cells like putting water on a plant. Insulin is very important for your cells. Water is very important for your plant. But it could we overwhelm that plant with water? Yeah, if we do that, what happens? The plant dies and welts away. Well, guess what happens to your cells when you overwhelm them with insulin? The same thing. They shut down their doors, the ability to do their job effectively. And when you have enough of these cells that are that are doing this, eventually that
Jason Shumard DC (09:07)
Insulin or the blood sugar, the sugar starts to pull back into your bloodstream, starts to go high, and that's when you get the diagnosis. So this is why I always tell individuals if you're focusing only on trying to lower your sugars, you're never gonna fix your cells. And the disease is going to progress. So this is what happened to my mom. She had an A1C of a six point one when she went to full blown kidney failure. And people always ask, well, how is that possible?
Jason Shumard DC (09:32)
Because their belief system is the sugars are the cause. The sugars are like the gasoline on the fire. It can make things worse if you have high sugars. But it's not the cause of the disease. The disease is perpetuated from the cells being damaged from the multifactorial problems that are going on, inclusive of elevated insulin.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (09:50)
my goodness. Thank you for such a wonderful description. That took us in depth, but I feel like it gave us a lot of aspects of health to consider. And so, and thank you for defining A1C. I love making sure we're very clear about our terminology here. So I also was curious if you would be willing to describe from from your own words, describe, explain, define whatever feels best. Insulin resistance. Maybe if someone's in the room with you, what would you tell them about insulin resistance?
Jason Shumard DC (10:17)
The easiest way to do this is to give the analogy because I'm like the analogy kings. People hate it, some people love it, but I think it's the easiest way explain things and it makes sense. So the easiest way is to picture your car. Your car requires fuel in the form of gasoline, right? If your car has no gas, your car is not going anywhere. But when you look at your car, you have to put gas, you don't put it directly into the engine, you put it into the gas tank. And then the gas now has to get from the gas tank to your engine, and that goes through what's called a fuel line.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (10:21)
Yeah. I love it.
Jason Shumard DC (10:47)
Before it enters your engine, there's a fuel filter to clean the gas up to before it's so it's really pure and it gets into your engine. And now that engine uses the gas as combustion or energy. The same thing happens in the human body. The difference is our gas is glucose. So when we consume food, right, we're bringing that food into our gas tank, which is our gastrointestinal engine, and that our gastrointestinal tract.
Jason Shumard DC (11:13)
This is where the gas gets convert, or the food gets converted to glucose, which is our fuel. Now it's in our gas tank. Now we've got to get it to our engines, right? Which is inside of our cells, which is our mitochondria. So what has it get there? Through our fuel line, which is our bloodstream. So it gets released into our bloodstream, it then gets into circulation, it gets into our cells, and then eventually into our mitochondria and our body, our cells can use that for ATB, which is the combustion.
Jason Shumard DC (11:41)
Of that for our body to produce energy that we function properly. Now, the key factor that we mentioned earlier is you also need insulin in the situation. So the insulin is the key to unlock the door so the sugar can get in. When this is happening perfectly fine, there's no issues. Your body is doing its job. We you continue can regulate your own sugar. That's why we have some people who have no diabetes or in some resistance. And this person could have the same genetics, the same pro the same.
Jason Shumard DC (12:09)
The same mom and dad, etc., and have no diabetes, but brother, sister, and everyone else in the family has diabetes because this is not a genetic thing, this is actually a problematic issue at the cell level. So once this process is happening, now we have someone with insulin resistance. The same thing, your body consumes the food, you break down that food to glucose, it gets released into your bloodstream, the insulin gets released. But now, once we get to the cell,
Jason Shumard DC (12:35)
That receptor that's supposed where the key of insulin is supposed to unlock the doors is now closed. Right? It becomes desensitized. It's no longer able to accept the insulin. So on one cell, now that sugar goes back into your bloodstream. No issue, you're not going to notice this. But what if it's 5%, 10%, 20% of your cells? Right now we start to see this backflow going on and those sugars start to rise, which is now we've identified we have that true insulin resistance.
Jason Shumard DC (13:03)
And I and I will say one thing as well, because this is important, is that people ask us a lot, how can I identify if I have early stage insulin resistance? Because you can actually have normal blood sugar, normal A1C, even some somewhat normal, even insulin levels. And what I mean by that, it that should be below a four. That's below four insulin levels is ideal. Anything above that is showing high levels of insulin. Whereas on the lab test, it says above twenty-six. That's like
Jason Shumard DC (13:31)
Insane. That's a massive lot of insulin. But anyhow, so the easiest way you can look at this is look at your lipid panel, right? Your cholesterol panel. Everyone's getting this ran, their normal physical, even it's even ran on life insurance policies. All you have to do is look at your triglycerides to your HDL. And look at that ratio. If that ratio is starting to go high, and what high means is at least, I mean, I guess everyone has their own opinions on this, but if you're like above a three, that is massive red flag.
Jason Shumard DC (14:00)
If you're above a 2.5 and or you're getting that two to two to three level, you gotta there's a warning sign going on there. It should be below a two. Some people say it should even below below 1.5, but we can say go it should be below two to make it easy. Numbers. So anything below a two, you're probably gonna be in a pretty good range. Between a two and three, you've got some yellow flags raising. Any thing above a three, you definitely have insulin resistances happening inside your body. An easy way to look at early stage insulin resistance, look at that lipid panel.
Jason Shumard DC (14:30)
Before looking at anything else.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (14:32)
Yeah, using the lipids is so essential. I see this so often, unfortunately. but fortunately we have the technology and testing to be able to make those noticeable differences, hopefully over time. And that actually makes me think of the the approach you use. So I know that something that you talk about is reversing diabetes again, type two in this situation. So tell us a little bit more about that. What does someone with
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (15:00)
a reverse diabetes, what are their labs look like, maybe their medication, what's different about their day to day? Does this happen in a year? Does it happen in a decade? Anything you can share?
Jason Shumard DC (15:10)
Yeah, so this is gonna be unique to the individual, obviously. So if you have somebody who's maybe just recently diagnosed with diabetes, you know, in the last like year or less, that person may be able to do this fairly quickly. It could be three, six, nine months. Somebody's been dealing with diabetes 10, 15, 20 years, could take a lot longer based upon the underlying condition they're going on. But the reality is this that's the the the going back to this insulin resistance, the cell damage is what needs to be identified.
Jason Shumard DC (15:39)
And what I mean by that is why. Obviously, one of the mechanisms is gonna probably be the elevated insulin. Like that's a majority of individuals we see. But there are so many other things that could be going on. If we look at just the organs, the other glands and organs involved in blood sugar regulation. We've got organs like the pancreas. Could it be an issue? Yeah, for some people it could be an issue that could be going on. It's rare, but it could happen. And even you could have someone with tendencies of type one and tendencies of type two. So those things could be a mixture as well. We have to identify that.
Jason Shumard DC (16:09)
We could have issues with the the liver. And the liver is a major component to blood sugar regulation of the body. The adrenal glands. Why? Because they produce cortisol. When your body's under massive stressful environments, that cortisol, what many people don't understand is can be overly produced and start blocking that insulin receptor. And so if you have enough of that cortisol blocking the insulin receptor, it can't get in. That's a mechanism contributing to this insulin resistance. GI issues, right? Not only from a perspective of a
Jason Shumard DC (16:38)
transitioning that food into glucose, but how much is being released? Is there dysbiosis going on where you have a good poor butt gut bacteria bacterial growth factors? Is there leaky gut scenarios where you're starting to now leak into the large macromolecules of the food that's been undigested? Now the immune system attacking it, creating food sensitivities, inflammation, hypopolysaccharides, all these things can be come become s systemic and impacting the cells and do their job. The thyroid
Jason Shumard DC (17:08)
Production of hormone, thyroid hormone, T4 and T3 are essential for cellular function, nutrient deficiencies, inflammation, as I mentioned, chronic infection patterns like Epstein-Barr virus, Lyme disease, toxins. I mean, there are so many things that could be going on in the body. This is why earlier you asked the question, and I someone answered it and answered it extensively. This is why extensive testing needs to be done. We're in the traditional medical model.
Jason Shumard DC (17:37)
They're essentially running testing to identify three things. I know this is sad to say, but it's the reality. And if they tell you any different, then have them prove it because they're not proving into the day. When they run testing with you, if you doesn't matter if it's your endocrinologist or your primary care physician, looking for three things. Is the current medication working? Does the current medication need to be increased? Or do you need number three an alternative medication? And that's what's called management. And again, that's the the the
Jason Shumard DC (18:06)
trajectory that's happening in the medical model. People tend to believe that your medical doctors are there to get you healthy. They are not there to get you healthy. They're there to make sure you don't die today. That's the purpose of their job, that you don't die today. Because if their job was to truly get you healthy, why isn't there a plan? Here's what's going on in your body. We're gonna give you this medication. The goal is to work on this problem over the next 12, 18, 24 months and then the goal is to get you off this medication. Is that discussed? Never.
Jason Shumard DC (18:36)
How long are they expected to take that medication? For the rest of their life. That's considered a management style. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but that's the reality. So you have to make a choice. Yes, you want to be involved with your medical practitioners. Yes, you want to make sure you have proper management there. That's important. But if your job is to get in back to a healthy lifestyle, you have to look outside the box. This is why functional medicine plays a major role in this. I call it the triad, right? We have your medical doctor managing your condition so you don't die today.
Jason Shumard DC (19:04)
You have their functional medicine doctor evaluating what's going on and starting to heal the body. And then you have you to do all the work, right? The work that's involved that is necessary to actually get you back. So to answer your question, when we see reverse diabetes, we see patients off medications, normal A1C, and they're living their life again medication free and to be able to maintain that. Why? Because their body is now back into a status where it's homeostatic. The cells are now healthy.
Jason Shumard DC (19:31)
The ability to take that sugar and bring it into the cells is more efficient. The job has been restored, which we know the body can do. But again, as I mentioned before, it depends on the individual, the problems they're dealing with, how long that's going to take. We typically see somewhere between about nine and about 24 months for most patients to get to that place where they're like, okay, now we can maintain this.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (19:56)
Absolutely. And I was gonna ask you about medication specifically. And so I feel like you connected the dots there. If I'm interpreting and understanding correctly, what you're saying is especially in the model that you believe in, that reversing diabetes is not that medication-based management. It is truly getting back to this place where all of the different factors contributing to that type two diabetes are managed and potentially even solved. I know that one can be a difficult one to think through.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (20:26)
maybe something else I was hearing too is there's this, there's so many factors. You mentioned so many different aspects of what can contribute. And how I interpreted that was that actually can take a lot of the blame out of things. I think there's so much blame on, you know, okay, weight, blood sugar, medication, A1C. And then there's just a lot of blame placed on our patients. And so
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (20:52)
I think at least I interpreted it, maybe have something to add here too, is we can help to figure out what's going on without placing blame on ourselves.
Jason Shumard DC (21:03)
This is such an important, I'm glad you're bringing this up. It's so huge because when you look at, and I'm not trying to hate on the medical system. I'm not trying to hate on them. I just want you, I bet the but we have to use these comparisons. Because when some let's just say you have a person who's doing a decent job. Most of the people that I work with, that I meet with initially, they're already doing a decent job in their lifestyle. Like they've we don't even talk to them if they're eating McDonald's every day. And like that, you're not you're not gonna be a good fit for us. Sorry, it's not gonna work. So they're already doing a good job.
Jason Shumard DC (21:32)
But they're so they're they're eating pretty decent, they're getting some exercise, they're keeping their weight at a good place, but their A1C keeps going up, and their doctor's saying it's your fault, your fault, your fault, you do this, you do a better job. And it's like they're being pounded away. And it's like, what else am I supposed to do? When the reality is the right information is not being given to them. Because in many cases that we look at lifestyle, and I kind of give this again an analogy. Most of the people that we work with, they have anywhere between 10 and 20 different
Jason Shumard DC (22:01)
Mechanisms or problems that are going on their body that is driving their diabetes, their insulin resistance, their cell, their cell damage. So let's just say we have a person who has 10 problems. And one of their problems is they need to eat better. Okay, now we've got nine problems. Maybe another problem is they need to lose some weight. Okay, now we've got eight problems. Another problem is they're not exercising enough. So they start exercising. So now you've got a person who has 10 problems and they're now doing the traditional recommendations: eating better, exercising, losing weight, et cetera. And now they but if you look at the
Jason Shumard DC (22:30)
The problem here, they still have seven problems. Can someone reverse diabetes with seven problems still? No, there's no way. It's like saying, hey, we have 10 holes on your roof, we're gonna fix three, and that's gonna be the solution for you. No, it's not gonna fix the roof. You're still gonna have holes when it rains, it's gonna be wet, it's gonna be bad. And so this is no different. And so now, because the medical system believes this is a lifestyle disease, which yes, it's a contributing factor, but it's not the only one. Now who are they gonna blame? The patient.
Jason Shumard DC (22:57)
Because the patient's not doing a good enough job and they don't believe they're doing a good good enough job because they truly believe that pharmaceuticals and lifestyle are the answers to this. Even though there's clinical studies that show that's not the case. Like we still see people who are doing what's considered standard of care. that's the when they say standard of care, they mean taking medications, exercising, losing weight, and reducing or exercising and reducing weight and and eating properly. That's the standard of care.
Jason Shumard DC (23:26)
The stats are very clear that roughly 1% or less will reverse diabetes following those recommendations. Think about this. You're being bombarded with these recommendations in the medical model saying this is the only option you have, but their stats show it's less than 1% that will actually reverse our disease. That's a problem for me. It's time to start being honest, right? It's time to start saying, hey, listen, we don't know.
Jason Shumard DC (23:54)
What's causing your diabetes? Our job is not to evaluate you to find the cause. Our job is to help you to get into a place right now so we slow down the progression and manage your situation. If you want to go find that out, you need to find another option. But of course, as I've been stated, for 20 years, I have had an open door policy for every single patient that we've worked with to say, listen, if your doctor is interested in talking to us to identify what we do, talk about what we do, and have to help them understand what we do. I'm I'm open. Here's my cell phone.
Jason Shumard DC (24:24)
I'll give you the my personal number, no issues, no questions asked. In 20 years, I've received zero phone calls. Zero. And I've actually even tried calling some of the physicians to have a conversation. No phone calls back either. So there's not even an olive branch, an option here to even learn about some of the stuff. And we've literally taken patients to where they were taking three different medications, blood blood sugar medications, and eventually off all three of them. And their doctors saying we could have done this with you.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (24:30)
My goodness. Yeah, yeah.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (24:40)
My goodness.
Jason Shumard DC (24:54)
You need to go that other route. Really? Because I've been working with you for 10 years and you haven't done it yet. So was it year 11 that was gonna be the date year we're gonna do this? Like I'm just curious when we're gonna start this process and everything. And it's it's so crazy to me because I don't want the plaques, I don't want anything, any recognition. This is all about the patient. But why wouldn't somebody in the healthcare field that took an oath try to learn other options and learn to say, hey, I can't do this for you because it's not within my ability?
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (25:14)
Yeah.
Jason Shumard DC (25:23)
w what we do every single day. But I have a doctor that we know that can help you beyond this. And we should you should look into them as what help you us with this process. Like think about how many people would be helping with diabetes. Think about all the people that we'd be helping from saving a foot or a leg, dialysis, early death, like all these things. But it's just insanity to me that we're not opening our blinders to look at other options.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (25:46)
My goodness, absolutely. I think, I think a million things. I'm loving this, by the way. And so, first of all, absolutely, resources are essential. And there's so many great resources out there that we don't even know exist. I even think about like those who have financial burdens or financial barriers. There are grants and there are funds available, but we don't even know about them sometimes. another fact that I thought about is I love when others are in this space with me. I know there's this whole conversation of,
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (26:14)
competition, this, that, whatever, sure. But also I can't see everyone. I want there to be collaboration in this space. I want there to be more of me because I can't solve everyone's problem. But hey, I've got three great buddies who I know that can definitely take care of you. Great. So we collaborate and we find those resources. And I think that another aspect to me that really stood out about what you said was if we have 10 different factors going on that are contributing and then we solve one in nine and then we solve another eight.
Jason Shumard DC (26:24)
That's right.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (26:44)
And then we solve another seven. I don't know if anyone would pick this up, but to me, I don't know about you, that could feel overwhelming. Ten different things I have to figure out. my gosh. But also how empowering it is that you can take one step at a time and find one thing to work. It's just like nutrition. It's so overwhelming, frustrating, confusing. There's a million things online. No one knows what they're doing, but everyone knows what they're doing. It's weird, right? And so with that, I say one step at a time.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (27:13)
What's the one thing we can do? And then what's the next once we're comfortable? And then you keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Shumard DC (27:15)
It's so true. It's it's nothing different than going to a trainer and you say, I want to lose weight. I want to get toned. Like they're not going to throw you on a treadmill for 30 minutes and then go make you lift weights for another hour afterwards. Right? They're not going to do that. But that's eventually what you may be doing two, three months down the road. But your first step is let's get you on the treadmill for five minutes. We're going to walk with a little bit of an incline and maybe do a couple of little resistance training after.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (27:31)
Okay.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (27:36)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Shumard DC (27:43)
And the next step is gonna be this. Next step. So if we make this slow and progressive and incremental things that we can bite and chew really easily, it makes it super simple. But if I throw everything at you at one time, you're gonna be overwhelmed. And this is what's interesting to me because some people we work with are like, well, I want to know everything. I'm like, no, you don't. Because if you know everything, you're gonna be like, I can't do this. And you know what? You're probably right. But if I give you month one first and I show you exactly what needs to be done on month one, and you complete month one, and now
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (27:55)
Absolutely.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (28:02)
Yeah.
Jason Shumard DC (28:12)
We we high five. And now we're gonna go into month two. And I show you what exactly needs to be doing in month two. And all the protocols need to be done in month two. You're slowly working through this through. You're not gonna see major changes. You're not gonna see the major weight losses, but you're gonna see small incremental changes that are happening inside your body. When you make those small incremental changes, those are long-lasting. The short, quick changes return very rapidly when you stop them as well. And that is not health, it's a slow progressive process.
Jason Shumard DC (28:41)
Because guess what got you here? A slow progressive process. It's gonna have to do the same thing in re in reverse, but the good news is it won't take as long.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (28:45)
Yeah.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (28:50)
Yeah, sustainability is so key. If it's not something that we can keep up with, it's not the solution. There's not a pill, a magic pill, an overnight solution. If anyone finds a genie in the bottle, please let me know. But usually it's not the reality, right? We have to take it slow and steady. And again, sometimes we can choose to see that as a frustration. Or again, we can see that as a source of empowerment. How cool it is that we get just month one of the protocol. I can do this. I can manage that.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (29:17)
And then we move to step two, step three, month four, year one, year two, whatever it may be. And eventually we're into whatever our maintenance and the ultimate optimization looks like. by the way, I know you said not everyone loves analogies. I love analogies, so you're crushing it with that. and you know, maybe we've we've kind of already answered some of this, but I'm just curious if there is a most common thing that you that a patient has told you from a
Jason Shumard DC (29:17)
That's right.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (29:42)
previous provider that you have to kind of undo in their mindset. Is there anything that comes up?
Jason Shumard DC (29:48)
I think it's the lifestyle is the cause of diabetes, right? I think that they and what's it's so interesting because we will do a full analytics on this individual, show them all the problems are going on, and that person still has this ingrained belief that if they just eat better, exercise more, lose more weight, that's they're gonna fix the problem. Like it's so ingrained and it's and and it makes sense because I mean when we think about this, I I don't watch a lot of TV except for live sports. So if I'm watching a game like a
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (29:51)
Yeah.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (30:07)
Yeah, absolutely.
Jason Shumard DC (30:17)
A big Padres fan because I live here in Southern California. So if I'm watching the game, what happens? Every commercial, rebelsis, Jardians, like all these commercials about diabetes and all these things about you know, these foods that are diabetic friendly, and all they're just bombarded with this information. And I have one hour or whatever I'm working with them at that time to change their mind, but then now they're going back to the radio, the TV.
Jason Shumard DC (30:43)
Chatter around them, their doctor saying these things, their friends saying, my gosh, that's not true. You just need to eat better, you just need to exercise because it's so ingrained in the society that that's the cause. And it's interesting to me that you know, that this has been around for so long and people have tried this. Why aren't we seeing a reduction in diabetes? Why are we seeing an increase in diabetes every single year and not a reduction of diabetes? When something isn't true, I mean, how does it continue to stay on that truth?
Jason Shumard DC (31:12)
I had a a patient the other day who she had like she she had some like digestive issues that started to happen after she started some of our protocols. And her husband was like, You're done, you're not doing this anymore, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I'm inter I'm curious. If you would have had the same reaction to a pharmaceutical drug, would your husband said never take another pharmaceutical drug ever in your life ever again? She's like, Well, of course not. I'm like, it's it's also secondarily interesting to me that.
Jason Shumard DC (31:42)
An individual has more faith and trust than something that's been around for a hundred years over something that's been around thousands of years. And she's like, You're right. And I'm like, exactly. Like medication has been around for a hundred years. That's it. Modern medication has been around for a hundred years. Whereas holistic medicine has been around before Christ, BC, like Hippocrates' sign. It's been around for so many years, and people have more trust in a pharmaceutical drug than they do in.
Jason Shumard DC (32:12)
All of these people who have used holistic protocols for decades and thousands of years, and they have more trust in this pharmaceutical drug. And of course, they believe that the FDA is there to protect them and there are studies behind this and everything, but there's bias and there's always other things that are going on. I mean, when look about I know we're not gonna get in, we want I don't know where you want to go with this, but look at this new medication coming out by Eli Lilly, right? Quote unquote, it's a peptide, it's a GLP one basically.
Jason Shumard DC (32:41)
A GLP3 triagonist situation called Reditutride. Reditrutide. This medication they're saying is gonna be the first $1 trillion drug. $1 trillion. This is a lot of money that we're talking about here. Is it truly about the person getting better or is it about the company making more money? And this is no different. So when the trust comes into factor because you've been hearing it more often than you finally believe it, doesn't mean it's going to be truth. So we have to look at things with a grain of salt.
Jason Shumard DC (33:11)
And are you more comfortable with allowing more pharmaceutical drugs, which has side effects, always have side effects, and negative things in the body? Every single person's not gonna get the same reaction because we all have different genetics. Or are we more comfortable with using natural herbs? Natural things that have been shown to help our body recover, right? Suppression or recovery. So this is where the struggle comes into play is that there's so much chatter going on outside, and people tend to finally believe that.
Jason Shumard DC (33:40)
compared to what's really going on into their body.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (33:43)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think I'll take a moment to just clarify again. Oftentimes we talk about type one here, and for now, as far as we're aware, there isn't a cure for type one. So again, this conversation is focused on type two, the reversal of type two diabetes. We have to have our insulin. I am with my insulin all the time. This is my bestie, okay? And so just making sure we've all heard it. I think that's like I think about these conversations. I'm like, okay, if I could actively warn someone about
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (34:12)
What I'm about to talk about, we have some great information going on. And I just like to make sure we've made the distinguishment, the difference throughout this conversation. and I'm with you absolutely. There is so much to know and learn, and we'll never know it all, but that's also a beautiful part of it. There's been so much development and again, so much innovation, which is incredible. But I would say again, you said take it with a grain of salt. I say, Yeah, a little bit of a critical lens there, ask questions.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (34:39)
and do your research if you can. If you don't know how to do your research, ask someone that you know. but remember not everyone knows all the things. So if your if your bestie who has no medical credentials ever says they have the perfect solution, they might, but they also might not. Just be mindful, be be aware. So I think that something you mentioned too, you were starting to describe like who it is that would work really well to
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (35:08)
work well with you all. So who is the ideal candidate? If they're sitting there, if you're s if you're still listening to this and they're like, is this me? Did this benefit me? What is their where are they located? What's their lifestyle? What are their current labs, medications, anything? Who are they? who should be looking for you?
Jason Shumard DC (35:26)
Yeah, and think it's important, and we learned this very quickly when we were, you know, essentially marketing for the work that we do, is to really clarify, you know, type one versus type two, right? Type two, there is a reversal process. Type one could there be potentially for some individuals, but at this point, it's not like more of a solid answer. Yes, for sure we can actually reverse someone with type one. I think you probably recognize as well. There's some
Jason Shumard DC (35:54)
Really cool stuff that's coming out with like these transplants, stuff like that that's happening. That could be awesome. It could be a medical changing if that happens with individual type one. And I am hoping and praying that that works out for you guys because that would be an amazing situation. Because we all know that the the more amounts of insulin that you're putting into your body from an exogenous situation could create more harms in the future. So that's one thing, right? That's the first thing. Distinguishing, we help with type two.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (35:56)
Yes.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (36:02)
Yes. Yeah.
Jason Shumard DC (36:22)
Can we help individuals type one? Potentially, but it's not like I don't want to give me false hope and saying we're going to reverse your type one. That's not what I'm here for. What we're here for help mainly is for individuals with a cellular issue that's damaged. So that's the first and foremost. Very, very clear on that. But the other thing is, is I think the most important thing is that you have an individual who is motivated to get better. I'm not here to convince anybody. I tried to convince my mom for nearly 15, 18 years to help with her diabetes. She didn't want help.
Jason Shumard DC (36:52)
She was not interested in the help that we were doing in our office. because she was understood in making the changes that were necessary, mainly because her doctors were telling her she was fine. Her A1C was in good place, and everything was fine, even though complications were developing, everything else. She believed them wholeheartedly, and now she's no longer with us because of the scenarios that were told her through the medical industry, which is another reason why I speak like I do, because I don't care anymore, right? I the system killed my mom.
Jason Shumard DC (37:21)
And I have no doubt about it because they told her the wrong information and I'll fight tooth and nail. If they wanna come at me because I have a target on my back, I don't really even care anymore. Because you know, when you take my mom, the mo one of the most important people in my life, you can do what you need to. I don't really care at that point. So that's another person they they need to be motivated. They need to be ready to do what's necessary. They're not gonna be making us force them to do things. I'm not gonna do that. Like I ta always say the first step in reversing diabetes is six inches between your ears.
Jason Shumard DC (37:50)
Right. You have to have that motivation, you have that drive. we have to also be in a place where they've already made those lifestyle changes, right? If you're coming to us looking for you to make those lifestyle changes for you, we're going to give you some recommendations. But you know, if you're currently eating McDonald's, you know, fast food, you're not eating better, good quality food, you don't you have no restrictions on what you're eating, we're not a good fit for you. You've got to go start eating better first, you've got to start making some changes, maybe see a nutritionist, dietitian, those individuals.
Jason Shumard DC (38:19)
Help you first, right? Because and then if you're not getting the results and there's more nothing to be done, that's when you come see some see someone like myself. And so, and then are open to more of a holistic protocol, right? I'm not saying you need to trans transition completely from your medical model to this model. We don't allow you to do that. You have to be under medical care if you're gonna work with us. You have to be on pharmaceuticals managing your disease with your blood sugars, so then we can work on that because that's something we're gonna work on. Nothing I'm gonna give you.
Jason Shumard DC (38:49)
Gonna help you lower your sugars. I'm not focused on that. What I'm focused on is addressing the problems that are contributing to closing those doors, what I refer to as in the cells, that your cells are not functioning. That's what we want to work on. So we're gonna work on improving your liver function, your adrenals, your kidneys, your gut, your thyroid function, your decreasing inflammation. If you have underlying infection patterns, toxicities, hormonal imbalances, we want to help stabilize all those things in your body using.
Jason Shumard DC (39:17)
nutrition and holistic protocols, supplements, herbs, nutraceuticals to get that homeostasis. Once we start doing that and your cells start doing their job again, and they're opening and closing those doors, allowing the sugars in, your sugars start dropping naturally. So the need for medication goes away. That's what true reversal looks like. And people always ask me, well, how do I know if I'm reversing my diabetes? Well, two things. You can look at testing to show if that's happening. But number two, if you're lowering medications,
Jason Shumard DC (39:46)
And your sugars are staying the same or are actually staying going lower, it's a true indication. Because right now, if somebody came to me and let's just say they have a 6.6 A1C and they're taking two pharmaceutical drugs, well, if they stop one of those medications, what's that what happens at A1C? It goes up. But with the patients that we work with, as they're reducing their medications with the help of their doctor, their sugars are not going up. They're staying the same or going lower.
Jason Shumard DC (40:12)
Because now we know their cells are truly healing. Their body is truly healing at this point because it's now being able to do things on its own. And that's a true indication of reversal that's happening in the
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (40:22)
Absolutely. some incredible things there. And thank you for that wonderful explanation. I think something I want to also just kind of call out a little bit here for anyone who's listening and s heard the word motivation. Motivation is such a tricky one because sometimes it's like, man, I just don't have the motivation. I just can't do it. Whatever. Maybe if you are struggling to and you know, you're maybe in survival mode at bare minimum, you've got to do what you can to get yourself out of survival mode, fill your cup in the ways you can, and then
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (40:52)
You may eventually find the motivation. You may eventually feel the ability to make those choices. But something I like to say, I actually talk about this a lot. you said something earlier too. I'm so gonna sidetrack for a sec, but my book here, I don't mean to be controversial. I know you'll understand though. part of the subtitle is fire your doctor. I don't actually mean fire your doctor. What I mean though is if your provider's not working for you, find a new one. And so that's what I mean. and then within that though, totally lost my train of thought.
Jason Shumard DC (41:11)
Right.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (41:21)
with motivation, but there's a chapter in there. I talk about atomic habits is a book I am I love so much. If have you read it? Okay, yeah. I have a section a chapter in there called Atomic Diabetes and it kind of talks through a little bit of the mindset as it relates to my thoughts on atomic habits, integrated with diabetes. So anyways, this is a type one focus book, but if anyone wants it, it's a free resource online. and I believe in having free education available. So if anyone needs that information
Jason Shumard DC (41:27)
Yep. I asked, yep.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (41:50)
The notes will be or link will be in the show notes. Words are hard. and so motivation though. You may not always feel like it, but the most empowering thing I think is you have the choice. You have the choice. You have the option. You can and you have to make those choices, right? One step at a time, one bite at a time. I like that you said that too. Very nutrition. so just keep that in mind. If you're not feeling it, that's valid. If you're overwhelmed, that's valid. If you are
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (42:20)
Don't know where to start that's valid, but what's one thing? Not everything, but one thing that you can do. It can be anything. I even talk about hydration sometimes. I'm like, okay, you can take a sip of water or take a big gulp. That'll get you to the end of the day very differently when your total hydration is in consideration. Anyways, basic example. But my last big question for you, I have one more after that, but is there anything else that we haven't said, that we haven't discussed that you want to make sure that someone has heard before they leave here today?
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (42:51)
Yeah, I think the scariest about type two diabetes is that individuals they just they just feel like they don't notice the problem in initial stages. They don't notice the symptoms or issues. I I can't tell you often people let me I just I I feel fine. Like I'm healthy but I have diabetes. And it's because people tend to believe that symptoms are the reaction
Jason Shumard DC (42:51)
Yeah, I think the one of the scariest things about type two diabetes is that many individuals they just they just feel like they don't notice the problem in initial stages. They don't notice the symptoms or issues. I I can't tell you often people told me, I just I I feel fine. I feel like I'm healthy but I have diabetes. And it's because people tend to believe that symptoms are the reaction
Jason Shumard DC (43:20)
of the disease. And that's not the case. Symptoms occur as a latent stage. Like when you start feeling symptoms, it's too late. That problem is really severe at this point. And it's a major issue. And unfortunately, that's when most people get the motivation when they start feeling that. But if you can see diabetes, if if they if people can actually notice that diabetes is a progressive disease. This is the definition, it's progressive disease, which means no matter what you do, it's going to get worse.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (43:20)
of the disease. And that's not the case. Symptoms occur as a late to stage. Like when you start feeling symptoms, it's too late. That problem is really severe at this point. It's a major issue. And unfortunately, that's how most people get the motivation when they start feeling that. But if you can see diabetes, if if they if people can actually notice that diabetes is a progressive, this is the definition, it's a progressive disease, which means no matter what you do, it's going to get worse.
Jason Shumard DC (43:49)
unless you address the true underlying problems that are going on into the body. So if you recognize, hey, if I don't do something to fix this, I'm going to have X, Y, and Z happen to me, I know that's difficult and challenging because nobody wants to see themselves getting worse or they want to be more of a half class MP situation than half class full situation, whatever that is your mindset. But the reality is when you look at your disease process diabetes, if you're comparing somebody that's already had lost the leg and dialysis and you're not there and thinking I'm not as bad.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (43:50)
Unless you address the true underlying problems that are going on in the body. So if you recognize, hey, if I don't do something to fix this, I'm going to have X, Y, and Z happen to me, I know that's difficult and challenging because nobody wants to see themselves getting worse or they want to be more of a half-class situation than half-class full situation, whatever that is your mindset. The reality is, when you look at your disease process diabetes, if you're comparing somebody that's already had lost a leg and dialysis, you're not there and thinking, I'm not as bad.
Jason Shumard DC (44:18)
It's the same diagnosis. The same thing can happen to you and if you allow that to happen to you before you do something about it, you're too late.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (44:18)
It's the same diagnosis. The same thing can happen to you. And if you allow that to happen before you do something about it, it's complete. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for saying that. And thank you for such a wonderful conversation today. I want to make sure that people know where to find you. So obviously we'll have your information in our show notes, but just verbalize real quick. Where can people find you? The easiest way is probably my website. It's my name, D-R Shimar. It's D-R-S-H-M.
Jason Shumard DC (44:41)
The easiest way is probably my website. It's my name, DR Shumar. It's V R S H U A E dot com. The website has a lot of great information, but more importantly, if anyone is interested in learning more about what we do, how we evaluate for things, I have a registration page for a webinar that you can attend. It's a free webinar. I don't charge for it. Because again, I believe also education is a key component that people understand what needs to be done. So we go a lot more
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (44:47)
Wim A R E dot com. The website has a lot of great information, but more importantly, if anyone is interested in learning more about what we do, how we evaluate for things, I have a registration page for a webinar. You can attend it's a free webinar. I don't charge for it because again I I believe also education is a key component for people understanding what needs to be done. So we go a lot more in depth of how we evaluate for diabetes, what you should be looking for.
Jason Shumard DC (45:11)
how we evaluate for diabetes, you know what you should be looking for, your doctor's wanting testing on you, and then things that need to be done to actually fix the problem. And there's obviously an option there if you're interested in working with us, you can schedule a computation at that point in the webinar also. But that's a great place to get information, education, if you just want that only, you don't need to work with us. It's a free resource that we look
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (45:17)
investing on you and there are things that need to be done to actually fix the problem. There's obviously an option there you're interested in working with us, you can schedule a complication at that point in the webinar also. But that's a great place to get information, education if you just want that only, you don't need to work with us. It's a free resource and a free book. Amazing. Well thank you again for the awesome education today, the insight, the connectivity of so many different things that are happening both in the world of type one and type two.
Madi Cheever, MPH, RD, LDN, CH (45:46)
I am so appreciative. I know everyone here listening is as well. And for now, I guess that's it. And we will see you all on another awesome episode. Thanks again.
